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On what bases do you establish these teachings? I believe you try to use the bible as the basis, if this is the case tell me how the new testament church understood how to work since the bible did not exist yet. These “traditions of men” that you refute constantly do not exist in in Orthodoxy, I know you will be quick to say, how Orthodoxy functions is not what you see in the new testament but I would argue that that is exactly what you see, and also that tradition is what compiled the bible that you use, and it compiled it long after the time of the Apostles. Paul says quite clearly in 2nd Thessalonians 2:15 “hold fast to what you have been taught whether by word or by epistle”. There for you can be assured that there is more to the Christian faith than is just what is written down in the Bible. It breaks my heart that you folks are trying so hard to find the true faith, yet it is right here. If Orthodoxy is wrong, how do you know you have gotten it right? Orthodoxy is the oldest form of Christian worship, if we don’t have it right on what basis do you found your belief that you have it right? Because you read it in the bible that you are supposed to function this way? I would argue that every form of christian worship will say that they are the new testament church, and they will say that they know this because it is how they see the scriptures. Obviously God would not give us a book of scriptures and not show us how to interpret them. The standard Protestant response is that the Holy Spirit shows you how to interpret them. If that is truly the way the Lord wants it to function why doesn’t everyone have the same interpretation? The reason is that that is faulty. The Spirit does in fact guide us, because He guides us through the true church. With out Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, to guide us in the Holy Spirit, through the Scriptures, fathers and Traditions we are lost.
What basis do I establish these teaching? Did you go over the material, it is self explanitory. The New Testament church had both living Apostles, second they had the living Christ in them to teach them from the scriptures in the Old Testament. Paul said to Timothy that from a child you have known the holy scriptures that is able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 4:15-17
They were new creations in Christ Jesus and could hear the voice of Jesus directly with out any human need for one to teach them. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Ephesians 4:21 1 John 2:27. The Apostles echo the truth that they received from Christ and taught them how to hear the voice of the Spirit for themselves so that they (the church) did not need the apostles, to hear for them. They could prophesy directly to the Ekklesia by the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 14:26-38 they were given gifts by the Spirit 1 Corinthians 12:7-10. The tradition they followed was Apostolic not church history. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 3:6,7,8 Paul said to work is a tradition and not to live off of others, for they also laboured with their hands. The Agape feast is a tradition handed down from the Apostles.
If Orthodoxy is wrong how do you know it is wrong? The word Orthodox means traditional, mainstream, popular, well established. We have a yardstick to measure that which is from the Spirit of Christ and that which is not. That yardstick to you is tradition. We do have apostolic tradition as given above but that’s it. When a person or group of people stray from the truth and call it tradition error ensues. The two fold witness we receive from Christ is the witness of the Spirit (Romans 6:16) and the voice of the Shepherd Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 4:21) Christ is the living word (John 1:1) The living word in you and the scriptures of truth together guide us into all truth. Jesus said if you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. John 8:31,32 John the apostle said that we have an anointing that teaches us all things. 1 John 2:27.
If we have Christ in truth we will hear his voice, follow him, be holy, walk in the light, overcome the world, be led of the Spirit, walk by faith, love the brethren, love the truth, and Christ in us is our identity, not any formalism that has no basis in scripture. Thank you for your comments.
Be caeeful to mention that traditions is helping your faith. Jesus said that “the traditions of men makes the word of God of no effect”!
If you have yet to read it, do not deprive your ereader or bookshelf of this one:
Dear Bro. Anthony
What Tim has articulated in response to you, may seem a tad incomprehensible, insofar as how it’s practical, lived out daily. Consider this, the whole armour of God, only has one offensive weapon, the Word, the Sword of the Spirit. So if we are to counter the attacks of the enemy, that he brings to divide (and at which he’s been so successful lo these centuries) we should be in that Word daily, seeking for Yeshua our Redeemer and King, to to conform us to His character, renew our minds, develop spiritual discernment and gifts, to learn what voices speaking to us at any time, in our thoughts / mind are not of Him, and to be strengthened in order to tear down all strongholds including those in our life. The problem is that tradition, good or bad, is a man conceived replacement. I will give you an example, I watched a video a while ago, on YouTube called the Hebrew Yeshua vs Greek Jesus, in which a member of the body of Messiah, asked a Jewish rabbi, ex- Pharisee, now Karaite, to resolve a discrepancy in Matthew. To cut it short, the rabbi, explained why he left Pharisaicism, namely, that the people had come to depend on the tradition and interpretation of the Kara (OT) of Torah, Neviim, and Keruviim, (Law, Prophets, Writings) which rabbis thru the centuries had compiled based on their analysis of how any particular passage should be interpreted or broken down. Thus, the people never bothered with the Word (ie the OT as we call it) because they substituted the time and effort, needed to study, show themselves approved, and learn from God (Yehovah) what HE wants to say to them. Thus they lived a “spiritual” (religious) life, of following the traditions of men. In Matthew 23, Yeshua addressed this by saying as they entered the temple, as He pointed out what was called the “seat of Moses”, that the Pharisees taught when they sit in it, that they speak with the same authority from God as Moses, and thus what they interpret is binding. Yeshua then said, (and this was the point of the rabbi in the video who hasn’t found his Messiah yet), in the original Hebrew, (which was erroneously translated into the Greek and all subsequent translations), WHATEVER HE (MOSES) TELLS YOU TO DO, DO IT, BUT DON’T DO AS THE PHARISEES DO FOR THEY LOAD UP THE PEOPLE WITH BURDENS IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAR.
In other words, dead tradition aka ritual, is of no avail in saving anyone, sanctifying anyone, or aiding the spiritual growth of anyone.That’s why He said in another passage, “the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life”.
He said the job of the Holy Spirit was to lead us into all truth, which He can only do if we seek to be led. The early kehilat (ekklesia in Greek, assembly or congregation of believers in English) was not made up of adherence to buildings of brick and mortar, but was an edifice in Spirit, of living stones – that’s how the Father, Yeshua, and the Spirit saw (see) it, and the NT (really NC ie new covenant) explains when believers assemble how they’re to conduct their assembly and that all are to seek to participate, have some spiritual gift imparted. When Yeshua quoted in His first address at the synagogie / temple, the prophet Isaiah, and said that day it was fulfilled in the hearing of those present, what did He say the anointing of the Ruach Ha Kodesh, the Spirit / Breath of God was imparted for? Now as we look at the “church” today, is it doing this? The early believers did.
I’m starting a new web site should have it up and running soon. I want to be a part of the gospel going around the world. You heard of the Arab spring stirring up people to change a regime well why not a christian spring to put things to the way God intended. Jesus in the heart and minds though the Holy Ghost. Ruling in our hearts and being head of His body ,His bride the church.
Read Nehemiah 4:6
The Nehemiah account is the Bible’s key account of how a huge project can be done (rather quickly too) if Each-One-Has … a TROWEL!
In other words, perhaps one might say that when Each One Has (see 1 Corinthians 14:26), then likewise, a wall of maturity can quickly be built. Alas, because the trowel tends to be in the hands of a “pastor” alone, progress is not made.
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Brother Tim, I have been fellowshipping with Bruce and he says you know how to set up a website. I’d like to set up a website entitled Sheep Rescuers, wondering if you could help me.
I very much appreciated the Youtube entitled “House Church”. I sent it to my friend Bill Mosier and he told me that he also enjoyed what was said.
Do you know of a house church in Mississippi that I can contact?
188 Cambridge Drive
Starkville, MS 39759